Remembering the Rutland
Rutland Q&A
-page 7-

Q. #61   (07/06/00)   Are there any old official Rutland personnel records stashed in archives somewhere that would provide information about people who worked for the Rutland - dates and places of employment, duties, wages, etc.?

My dad (Leland P. Brady), uncle (Warren C. Brady) and a cousin (Leslie Pickering), all deceased, worked for the Rutland at various times between 1900 - 1940 in Moira, Brushton, Bangor, and Malone, and probably other stations. I remember walking the rails and riding the trains as a kid in the '30s and early '40s in that area, but have no souvenirs or data of the period to add to my family history.

Can you tell me whether such material even exists and, if so,  where I might find it?

-Paul Brady

A.  (08/01/00)  I would also be interested in this information, as I just discovered my Grandfather worked as a trackman, we think, during the depression years.

-Rome Romano

A.  (08/06/00)    No one seems to have the answer. I asked this question over a year ago, when I first joined (the RRHS). No answer. Others have asked it as well. I asked it in person at the May convention in Rutland. No answer; some thought that they went to someone "in Canada" who disappeared with some Rutland paperwork. Others thought that fragments might survive in some archives somewhere. Anything more authoritative than this?

By the way, Paul Brady [Paul posed the original question #61 -jrd], did you have a relative named Myron? I am from Malone; my brother and I also haunted the rails in the 1940s. Great times for railroads in Northern NY, and Malone was the place to be. Not any more!

-John Bessette

A.  (09/13/00)    I have within the past few months found out that my great-great grandpop & great-great-great grandpop both worked the Rutland. Great-great-grandpop Nelson Santwire (Narcisse Santoire) was a brakeman probably around late 1800's to early 1900's. I'm not sure if the other was his father Nelson, Sr. or his father-in-law Frank Dudley (Francois Daudelin) who worked Her also. I am looking from a genealogical stand point also BUT I am finding this era FASCINATING. Any thoughts or clues of where to look for records would be greatly appreciated.

-Loni Daniels

A.  (09/14/00)    Loni Daniels brings up an interesting point - he is interested at the genealogical aspects of his family. Sometimes records used by genealogical researchers have information on an individual's profession. Census records, military, marriage and birth records (re: parent's name) often contain reference to their profession. One of my Alcatian ancestors worked as a sword sharpener at the factory where Napoleon bought his weapons - this came from a record in the Catholic Church in his town. You never know what you might find.

-Ray Muntz

Care to comment?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #61.

Q. #62   (07/29/00)  I've read that the Rutland mountains were painted green. If so, what green was it and is there any paint today that matches it. Also, I assume the builder's plate was green, too, with the letters highlighted. Was the highlighting in white?

-Lou Champlin

A.  (08/24/00)   Regarding the Rutland "Green 90's"... refer to Andy Sperandeo's Paint Shop in the April 1989 Model Railroader (p. 117-118) for the article written by Bruce Curry. According to Bruce's article the Rutland 90's were delivered "in a vivid green and yellow livery reminiscent of the treatment the Southern Ry. had earlier applied to its class Ps4 4-6-2s...By 1948, all four L-1s had been repainted black."

Bruce used Floquil BR441 British Southern Ry. Locomotive Green, and adding 110033 Railbox Yellow until the mixture matched "the Cabot (Paint Company) paint chip and number plates taken outdoors in sunlight."  To make a long story short the ratio turned out to be 10 parts green to 3 parts yellow.

As of 1989, Andy Sperandeo writes, "BR441 was no longer available... so the last "approved" mixture was 8 parts 110036 Weyerhaeuser Green and 1 part 110040 Dark Green. I also found that 110174 Southern Green is very close as it comes."

Of course the debate will always go on! Shortly after the PFM model was produced, while still working at Green Mountain, I asked Bob Adams about the "true" color of the Green 90's. While this is strictly from memory, he commented that while surviving photos of the "Green 90's" show a shade close to the diesel green (another debate... as some surmise it was actually CNW green...), it was mainly due to the heat of the loco "baking" on the paint and also road grime. Referring back to Bruce's article "In fact the color was a medium green...corroborated by the original builder and number plates from no. 90."

Forgive my tardiness in responding to this query; I sincerely hope that this tome helps you, and others.

-Rome Romano

A.  (09/11/00)    [Regarding] the color of the 90's, when Glenn Annis and I were researching the Winter 1996 and Summer 1997 Newsliner articles, Bruce Curry loaned me his Cabot Paint color card with a chip of the Light Moss Green that the engines were supposed to have been painted. I understand that chip has also been matched to the paint on the back of one of the 90's builder's plates. Cabot gave up their paint line a number of years ago to concentrate on stain and do not have chips available of old colors. I made up a quart of green to match Bruce's chip with the intention of spraying up a sheet of cardboard and cutting it up for anyone interested. Maybe next convention. I also think Bruce's model looks better in real life than in the photo in Model Railroader. It seems to me that the printer's ink didn't quite capture the color. And, of course, what did the heat and exposure do to the paint on the prototypes? An interesting model would be one that tries to capture the green blended with soot and dirt. The diesel green, as we noted in the Newsliner article (part 1), shared parentage with C&NW green. Both railroads bought green and yellow Alco RS-3 demonstrators and then modified the striping and lettering. Again, exposure and steam cleaning seem to have changed the color over time.

-Bill Badger

A.  (09/12/00)    Remember that Robert Willoughby Jones's Boston & Maine: Field, Forest & Mountain (or something very close to that), which should be out by Christmas, is scheduled to include a large, full color portrait of a green Rutland 4-8-2.

-Steve Wagner

Care to comment?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #62

Q. #63   (07/31/00)   I am scratchbuilding a model of the Swift Packing plant in Burlington, Vermont. I don't have any photos of the building when it was in operation. Does anyone know what type or style of signs Swift used on their small packing plants like the one in Burlington? Is the lettering, or "typeface," the same style as used on their red and yellow reefers? I see Champ has the Swift logo from their reefer set available seperately; it is the red panel with white lettering. Might it be appropriate to use these?? Does anyone know what color was used on the building prior to it being coverd in Insel Brick?? Thanks.

-Don Spiro

A.  (08/01/00) The only photos I could find in my "vast" collection was from Nimke's Vol.V, Part 1, p153. They were taken in 1987 by Steve Mumley.

-Rome Romano

A.  (09/12/00)    I recall the lettering on two Swift branch meat distribution facilities, one in St. Johnsbury, Vt which is similar to the Burlington structure. It consisted of individual letters painted gold attached directly to the building above the second floor windows over the loading dock and spelled out "Swift & Company", in what I would call all upper case. The "S" and the "C" were approximately 14-16" tall with the rest of characters 10-12" tall. The other installation I remember was in Pennsylvania on a masonry building which was identical.

-Paul J. Dolkos

A.  (11/15/00)    The October, 2000 issue of the NMRA Bulletin has a very nice article about the St. Johnsbury Swift packing plant circa 1950. It details the scratchbuilding of a model of the plant by Larry Cannon.

-Steven A. Schulman

Anything to add?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #63.

Q. #64   (09/03/00)  I have seen photos of most classes of Rutland steam on the turntable at Bellows Falls. However, I've never seen the 90-series Mountains taking the ride. This causes me to ask just where did they turn. I think they may have been too long for the Bellows Falls turntable. But I would like to hear from someone who knows the facts. Thank you in advance for any help you can give me.

-John Ring

A.  (09/04/00)   John is correct that the 90s did not fit on the turntable at Bellows Falls. The engines were taken across the river to the B&M yard [in North Walpole, NH] and turned there. I saw a published photo recently but can't find it at the moment.

-Ray Muntz

A.  (11/11/00)   Nimke's The Rutland: 60 Years of Trying, Vol. VII, The Addendum, describes the 90's being turned at the B&M turntable in North Walpole. On p. 25, Mountain #93 is on the table at North Walpole; on p. 34, #90 is shown at the Island Yard ashpit with the caption: "Bellows Falls engine terminal 7/1/52 with #90 being coaled and having its ashes dumped in preparation to take No. 119 to Rutland. Engine had been turned on the B&M turntable across the Connecticutt River on account the Rutland's too short. The cost? One tank of water."

-Larry Burch

Care to comment?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #64.

Q. #65   (09/10/00)   Is the Athearn 50 ft. steel gondola a true Rutland model? It looks more like a Hew Haven car to me. Did the Rutland have any steel gondolas in this eye-catching scheme that Athearn is now selling, or anything close? Thanks.

-Ernest Sanchez

A.  (09/10/00)    This question hits home with respect to a pet peeve of mine. I've read many back issues of the now-defunct Prototype Modeler, and in a well-written series of articles written by noted freight car historian Richard Hendrickson concerning kitbashing Athearn 50 foot gondolas, he states that after much research in Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias and other sources, the inescapable conclusion is that the Athearn 50 foot steel gondola has no prototype. I've never seen this disputed. I can't say whether or not the Rutland had any gons that appeared close to the Athearn gon, but if one is interested in some level of prototype accuracy, one shouldn't use this car. Oh sure, it's close to a pretty standard 52' 6" Greenville steel gon, but Life-Like makes an accurate model of this car (although not, to my knowledge, in a Rutland paint scheme).

-Charles Harmantas

A.  (09/11/00)    Sticking my neck out a bit here... the Rutland 1000 series gons are Pullman-Standard class PS-4's. There are at least two 1000's currently running around the VRS system in company service. The Athearn 50-foot gon has no prototype, and currently there are no decals available (Ray?) to model a kitbashed version of a 1000. The Life-Like gons are close to the 1200 and 1201, but you need to add a Pullman-Standard solid end to the LL gon to make it a Rutland 1000. Many years ago a person (group?) from Canada, National Car Castings, manufactured an ex-CN gondola kit. They supplied the sides and ends, and the purchaser supplied the running gear. It can be kitbashed into a Rutland 1000 by using P-S ends, too. These castings are rare, and while I have a few in my "to-do" box, I know of none others available.

-Rome Romano

A.  (09/12/00)    Athearn's 50' gondola is one of that firm's oldest HO models still in production. (One of them was the first HO car I ever bought, in 1959 or 1960.) Like many model railroad items offered considerably more recently, it's not an accurate replica of anything on a real railroad. However, Athearn actually has been "beaten to the punch" in lettering this model for the Rutland by both Bev-Bel and CM Shops (Rail Runner), and the latter repaint specialist usually tries hard to stick to paint jobs that are at least plausible on the models available, even though the former hasn't always done so. Apparently there are a good many hobbyists who don't mind a model that doesn't have the same number of ribs as the real car it represents and/or has some of them spaced differently -- especially since the lettering is close to the prototype and no decals or dry transfers for it are available.

On to more prototypical modeling. One problem with using Life-Like's Proto 2000 gons to replicate Rutland 1200 and 1201 is that the model's ribs extend all the way to the bottom of the fishbelly portions of their sides, and the ribs of that pair of Rutland cars didn't. Conversely, Con-Cor's mill gondola, based on the Revell car introduced around 1959, which in some respects looks more like Rutland 1000-1024 than the Athearn gon does, has ribs that don't reach to the bottom of the fishbelly part of the sides, while those on the gons the Rutland bought from Pullman-Standard did!

Here's a question prompted by Rome Romano's contribution: Are any HO versions of P-S "solid" gondola ends commercially available? If so, from whom?

-Steve Wagner

Care to comment?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #65.

Q. #66-1 thru 66-8   (09/11/00)  

1) Nimke Vol. 1, in the 1919 roster, shows two 0-6-0's #613 and #621. He gives no build or retirement dates for these. Shaughnessy does not seem to mention these at all. Can anyone give more information about these engines?

2) Does anyone have the retirement dates for the large lot of 4-4-0's retired between 1901 and 1905? (i.e. Engines 62, 63, 66-75, 77-79, 176, and 192).

3) Does anyone have the date when 2-8-0's #2424-2426 were renumbered to #2401-2403? These later became #10-12.

4) Does anyone have the date when 4-6-0's #2036-2037 were renumbered to #2070-2071? These later became #70-71.

5) Does anyone have the date when 4-6-0's #2153-2159 were renumbered to #2058-2064? These later became #58-64.

6) Does anyone have the date when 4-6-0's #38-39 were renumbered to #72-73?

7) Does anyone have the date when 4-4-0's #80-82 were renumbered to #65-67?

8) What was the Rutland class designation for USRA 0-8-0's #109-110?

-Michael Hobbs

A. 66-1  (09/15/00)    According to records I have 0-6-0's numbers 613 and 621, class B-11k (Schenectady,1913), were NYC engines that were leased to the Rutland and returned to the NYC in 1920.

-Glenn Annis

A. 66-8  (09/15/00)    The Rutland class designation for [0-8-0] numbers 109 and 110 was U-3.

-Glenn Annis

Can you help?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #66.

Q. #67   (09/18/00)   While it seems obvious that a number of things can be done to upgrade the Accurail version of Rutland #7999, what is the consensus of the modelers of our society concerning correcting the roof of this car in terms of rebuilding, removing or other action?

-Bill Nalewaik

Got an opinion?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #67

Q. #68   (10/22/00)   Hopper car R 764 is at our facility in the Syracuse, NY area. Following are some observations and questions:

-John J. Blair

 A. (10/25/00)    In answer to the question about 764 hopper. The Rutland purchased this car from Chicago Freight Car Company in 1959 for MofW service but this was soon changed to revenue service to cover the sand service between Malone and Ogdensburg and the coal service in Ogdensburg for the State Hospital. [The cars came] in two groups: 750-759 and 760-764. The first series were received with X marking before the number (X750). These cars were Ex-DL&W and a few of them lasted up in Ogdensburg until recently.

-Steve Mumley

Anything to add?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #68

Q. #69   (10/22/00)  What is the general consensus regarding the good ol' Athearn 40' flatcar versus the "new" Red Caboose RC-2202 undecorated 42' flatcar when it comes to kit-bashing a Rutland 2700, 4000, or 4500?

Anything to add?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #69

Q. #70   (11/08/00)   Were the Rutland RS-1s ever MUed with the RS-3s? The photos in the books I have do not show them together.

-Steve Goldspiel

A.  (11/12/00)  M.U. is a strange subject....Back when builders started producing units they really intended them to operate as groups and as such never thought about standardizing M.U. arrangements. Thusly, the M.U. arrangement of an EMD FT was different from the F-3's of later years.

Alco was no different. They started out with the 19 pin socket found on all the switchers at least up to the S-4's as well as the RS-1's (Rutland's included). After that it was succeeded by the M.U. found on the RS-2 which consisted of TWO sockets, a 21 and a 12. (Bear in mind here that Alco 21 pin was not in the same pattern as EMD so they were not compatible either) You had to plug in TWO jumpers instead of one. Then along came the RS-3 with the 24 pin socket which was different again.

By the mid-50's it was becomming evident that standardization of M.U. systems had to be done. B&M is a good example. The earlier RS-3's had the 24 pin socket while the later RS-3's had both 24 and 27 pin sockets. By the late 1950's the AAR decreed that the 27 pin socket was now industry standard for interchanging of locomotives and that the three pipe system for air brakes was also standard.

Back to the Rutland.... Their RS-1's had 19 pin M.U. while the RS-3's had 24 pin. No, they would not M.U. with each other. Unfortunately, neither the Rutland nor anyone else took the initiative like I did with the [ex-Rutland RS-1] 405 and convert the RS-1's to be compatible with the RS-3's. I believe that Rut, NYC, D&H and early B&M RS-3's would M.U. but I have never seen a picture of them mixed.

I'll bet this is more than you wanted to know but I hope you find it useful. Below is the short version again:

You may want to add a side note that GE 70 tonners as built could not MU with other makes either.

-Rome Romano

A. (11/13/00)   I assume that the term "MU" (multiple unit) when speaking about diesel locomotives, the intended reference is to a consist of two or more locomotives being controlled from a single locomotive in the lash-up. As Mr. Whitney states with technitude (G.W. isn't the only one who can MU words) an RS-1 could not be MUed with an RS-3 and thus a lash-up of these units could not be operated by a single engineer. However, this does not rule out an RS-1 being run together with an RS-3 provided that both units are manned - as in a double-header. Certainly an RS-3 running together with a steam engine is well documented by photos, so why not an RS-1 helping an RS-3?

-Mike Sparks

A. (11/14/00)    Ironically enough what Mike alludes to [just above] happened on the Green Mountain Railroad in the early 1980's. GMRC borrowed a VTR RS-3 (605?) and used it to spread ballast for the State of Vermont contractor. When it came time to return the RS-3 to the VTR it was "boxcar'd" behind the RS-1 (401?) used on XR-1 that day. An engineer (DML) was deadheaded to Ludlow by pick-up truck and ran the RS-3 as a helper behind the RS-1 from Ludlow to Summit.  At Summit XR-1 stopped and the helper engineer was picked up by the CMO and brought back to N.Walpole, with XR-1 proceeding to Rutland. There is a prototype for everything...

A couple of side notes:

The engineers were in radio contact the whole time and were considered to be in "helper" service, with the "lead" engineer in charge of the consist.

When a locomotive is "boxcar'd" the brake valves, Independent (loco) and Automatic (train) are cut-out, leaving the lead locomotive in charge of the brake system.

In pusher service the rear (of train) locomotive(s) have the Automatic cut-out leaving the lead locomotive in charge of the brake pipe, but have the Independent brake cut in for numerous safety reasons.

-Rome Romano

A. (11/18/00)    I too have wondered about the MU compatibility of the early-model Alcos so thank you to Mr. Whitney for clearing up that question. He gives reason to numerous photos I have or have seen of the Susquehanna's Hainesburg job from Little Ferry New Jersey to it's west end connection with the LNE at Hainesburg Jct. Oftentimes along with the four or five RS-1's that powered the train an S-2 switcher would appear in the consist. This might also explain why you never see LNE FA-1's MU'd with their RS-2's?? However to throw a potential monkey wrench into his explanation though, didn't the D&H MU their RS-2's and RS'3's? This may have been routine after the pin conversion but I seem to remember early black and yellow scheme photos of the two together.

-Don Spiro

A. (12/14/00)    The Rutland really didn't need to MU the RS-1's and RS-3's. They assigned their power so that the RS-3's were used, mainly in pairs, for the through jobs XJ-1 JX-2 and for main line wayfreights. The RS-1's were used for yard jobs and Ogdensburg Sub wayfreights and they were based out of Alburgh. They used a rotation system in which one of the 400's would leave Alburgh on the Alburgh-Malone wayfreight full of fuel and serviced, then used on the night yard in Malone and then would be used the next day on the Malone-Ogdensburg wayfreight MO-1. MO-2 would reverse the rotation until the unit ended back up in Alburgh and ready for fuel and service. The exception to the policy was the 402 which was assigned to Burlington yard and was the only unit that had a radio. Alburgh was responsible for service and 90-day inspections for the 400's. All other major work was done in Rutland and when one of the 400's would go to Rutland, it would be replaced with one of the 200 series RS-3's.

Speaking of roads that ran more than one unit without MU capabilities, the B&ML had 3 or 4 GE 70 Ton engines that were not MU ready. They used an engineer in each unit. The StJ&LC, on the other hand, could MU all their 70 ton engines and in later years had one of the 70 ton engines that could MU with their GP-7's, much as the GMRC (ex-Rutland) 405 can now MU with the GMRC Geeps thanks to Mr. Whitney. The 405 has bailed out the GMRC more than once as back up power.

-Steve Mumley

Care to add anything?  Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #70

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